http://littlerock.craigslist.org/grd/3220740042.html
“I am compelled to respond to your warning about “kill buyers” as you label them. You should know, and others should know, that there are many of us who have owned and handled livestock (cattle, goats, horses, sheep, etc.) all of our lives who agree that there is a time when slaughter is the best end for livestock. It is strange to us that someone who regularly eats a steak, a hamburger, or mutton, or fried chicken objects so vehemently to the slaughter of horses. Under certain circumstances that is certainly the “best end” of a horse and the most economical for the horse owner.
Understand me now, I don’t advocate anyone misrepresenting themselves and what they are doing. But, the crazy laws passed by misguided legislators opened the doors for such things to happen when it became illegal for our well established and legitimately operated livestock auction barns to sell equine for slaughter. In that situation, slaughter buyers for horses were there competing with others for the purchase of the animals, thus maintaining a stable base for equine prices, giving equine owners a fair price for animals that are no longer (or never were) of value for anything else, and getting some good use out of the animals. Any equine owner who chose not to do that, to keep the animal until it died of old age, or kicked them to death, could do so. It was their choice.
Removing the “choice” for equine owners created the problem.”
My response:
I am equally compelled to respond to your post. At NO time is slaughter ever the “best end” for a horse. It may, however, be so for the owner if they make a few bucks off the sale or so they don’t have to deal with the disposal of the carcass, but the best end has always, and likely will always, be humane euthanasia at the hands of a veterinarian.
The problem, in fact, started when owners of livestock decided to try to capitalize on the slaughterhouse facilities by killing horses in the same manner in which they kill cattle. Horse slaughter, as it currently stands, is labeled cruel for a number of reasons including (but not limited to) the fact that the captive bolt guns do not stun horses as they are designed to do to cattle. The horses are not knocked senseless and are very much aware of what is happening to them. Slaughterhouses are currently not properly equipped to deal with horses in a humane fashion.
The “well established and legitimately operated livestock auction barns” are, for the most part, alive and well. Presumably you meant the slaughterhouses themselves. Assuming that’s the case, any structure can be “well established” and/or “legitimately operated”, the better statement to make would have been “humanely run” but, of course, no one could make that statement about an equine slaughtering facility as it would be a complete fallacy.
The “choice” for equine owners has not been removed. Horses are still sold for slaughter and hauled either to Mexico or Canada. Just because the plants in the US lost the funding for the required federal inspections doesn’t mean the industry was shut down (although, the industry itself has been on the decline for a long time, but that’s another topic in and of itself). The problem is far too complex to ever be simplified down to two paragraphs, let alone one declarative sentence. That said, people who defend the slaughter of companion animals without being aware of and properly understanding the major factors surrounding the issue certainly aren’t contributing to a resolution.
38 Comments
Yes, euthanasia is definitely the kindest thing. The horses also suffer terribly on the transport to the facility and suffer psycologically when they smell the fear and blood of previous horses.
Horses serve mankind and should have a kind end to their lives. Noone would think of doing
something like that to a faithful dog.
It is a cowardly act to ask a horse, who has been your faithful partner, to end their days in suffering and fear. If an owner has been able to take care of the horse during their working life, then they should be able to make plans for their inevitable end. Anything less is lazy and pathetic.
Well written but I’m afraid your logic is lost on the OP. He/she is one of those people who does not look at horses as a “companion animal” but rather a tool or possession – much like a truck. And no one would ever think of giving an old truck a second chance by refurbishing it and finding it a new home. Certainly not when its much quicker/economical to get $50 for it at the junk yard.
Why do people like this guy automatically ASSume anti-slaughter people “…regularly eats a steak, a hamburger, or mutton, or fried chicken…” ? Most anti’s I know are vegetarian/vegan.
So, understand me now, your argument is a pile of poo. Did you cut and paste this from Slaughterhouse Sue’s website? Argument in favor of slaughter=FAIL.
so true haha. Don’t tell ME I regularly eat steak- I don’t, and haven’t for 11 years.
Although slaughter for cattle is pretty humane. It’s mass production of cows/whatever on cramped farms.
I liked your post, snarky. I wholeheartedly agree.
As a rancher I would just like to point out that beef cattle are raised out in pasture. Large open pastures lots of room to roam and be cattle. I would be perfectly happy to be reincarnated as a breeding cow. They graze out in pastures all summer get fed good all winter and are only bothered a couple of times a year for routine shots and other health care. Cattle going to slaughter spend a brief time in a feed lot where they seem quite happy to sit and stuff them selves all day.
Maybe yours have a nice pasture and a good life but I wouldn’t consider a beef cow as living the life of luxury. And I sure as Hell wouldn’t consider life in the feed lot as anything but disgusting. You say they seem to be fine, they stand there and eat? What other choice do they have? NONE. And cow slaughter houses are no way in Hell humane. I don’t see how anyone can say such a thing and keep a straight face. Humans have such funny ways of justifying the bad thing they do as long as they benefit from it.
I’ve seen cattle that are very well-taken care of on big beautiful pastures, and those that are cramped into tiny dirt lots and fed grain (unnatural for a cow). Many I approve of, but I’m a vegetarian for multiple reasons.
I’m not vegetarian at all. to me, horses are pets, not livestock, so even if there was humane way of slaughtering horses (and still make profit!), even if slaughtering horses would solve the over breeding problem (which it doesn’t!), i would not support it nor would I eat horse meat, no more than i could eat dog meat.
It’s so true that if a person can afford to have a horse in the first place, with all the
high expenses, then they can surely afford to pay a vet to euthanize the horse.
Can they?
First of all, they need to find a vet willing to do it. Many vets will NOT euthanize a healthy but unusable horse.
Veterinary euthanasia costs an average of $200. Then you have to get rid of the carcass. Many jurisdictions will NOT allow you to bury a horse on your property. Only 50% of states have renderers, who charge up to another $200 to pick the dead horse up. Very few municipal landfills take dead horses, and they charge up to $150…and almost NONE take a chemically euthanized animals.
No. That is not much compared the cost of keeping a horse, but…if you have lost your job and/or your land and can’t afford to keep the animal, can’t give it away because it’s not sound to ride…or sometimes even if it is, that few hundred bucks is a lot of meals for you and your family. (Which is why I have no problem with rescues coming in and simply paying for euthanasia on horses that are unlikely to be adoptable). Except if none of the local vets will do it and all the rescues are full, what then? The person may have no CHOICE but to send that horse to an auction before it starves to death.
And if somebody goes bankrupt, bad things can happen to the horses. Silver medal winning horse London is legally owned by the rider’s sponsors. Or was, until they went bankrupt. (Given the caliber of horse here he’s likely safe, but in personal bankruptcy cases, horses often end up sent to livestock auctions so the creditors can get money quickly).
I hate this winny excuse made by horse owners why they need a place to dumped their horse and get a few bucks to do it. Slaughter houses are never humane, they can’t be. Impossible to slaughter animals in large numbers in a humane way. Yes you can make some better but none can be considered humane. What is up with all the people claiming and blaming all the dumped or starved horses on us shutting down slaughter houses? How do they figure? The auction houses and feed lots and the Chuck Walkers of the world have been doing business as usual. Most people didn’t ever drive their horse directly to the slaughter house. They sold them to the friendly neighborhood feed lot buyer in one way or another. When I often hear people say we nee the slaughter houses cause it costs too much to have them euthanize and disposed of. Then I remind them that bullets are still cheap and their dogs and cats or somebody’s else s will really benefit from the meat. Only a uncaring chicken shit would allow their horse to die in a slaughter house.
You’re misunderstanding me. What I am saying is that SOME people are pushed into a situation where they either cannot afford to euthanize OR keep a horse or they can’t afford to keep it, can’t get rid of it, and the local vets won’t euthanize. Thus, those people may have two choices: 1. Starve the horse until animal control does something or 2. Send it to the slaughter house. We see both 1 and 2 all the time…but these people need help, not judgment. Many times they could afford the horse…when they bought it. Shit happens. Anyone who says it doesn’t has been insulated…they’ve never come into work in the morning and told to clean out their desk and/or hand in their uniform with no warning that anything was wrong and left suddenly wondering how they are going to keep THEMSELVES, let alone their horses…and if the horse is not usable for any reason, it all becomes so much harder.
It’s not whining. It’s facing reality…and accepting that if we are going to stop horses going to slaughter we have to address WHY they end up there…whether that mean hay banks to help people through short tough patches, euthanasia clinics, or whatever.
As I said before, bullets are cheap. Then either cut and wrap it up for dogfood or give to somebody else. to do so. I know it doesn’t sound like a fun thing to do but sure as Hell beats sending off to die in the worst possible way. You couldn’t get me to take my horse to a slaughter house if you held a gun to my head. Even people who are out of work such as me would go srub people toliets to avoid sending my horse to be abused in such a way. There are alturnatives to slaughter they just may be less convient
You are right. Maybe vets should euthanize any animal that an owner wants euthanized. If I could no longer keep my old dog, for who knows what reason, I
would rather it be euthanized than have to be taken to the shelter. But I know
that most vets won’t euthanize a dog unless it is really sick or vicious.
You can find a vet that will put an animal down on request, you just may have to do a little work finding one. I have found homes for dogs that maybe have a year left of their lives, it can be done, its not easy but who said life was easy? I believe when you take a animal in its your job to see it through to its end, no matter how difficult or in convent it may be.
I’m not saying it’s RIGHT to dump a horse, I’m saying some people end up in bad situations through no fault of their own. Saying it’s all about ‘convenience’ isn’t much different from ‘all unemployed people are lazy’. People need, like I said, help finding and reaching alternatives, rather than being verbally assaulted.
I only said there are way to end your horses life other then sending it to slaughter and they don’t cost very much at all. A clean shot in the head and turn it into dog food Trust me there are lots of dog people who would be more than happy to take care of a horse. There are game farms,zoo’s. If your worried about it getting done humanly. Then go with the horse or do it yourself. ,Hey they are unemployeed so they have a lot of free time to find somebody to help them.
I did suggest an alternative. Guess you didn’t like it? I said there are other ways other than slaughter houses , that don’t cost anything. Just takes some effort to find who you need. There is no excuse for sending your horse to die such a horrid death.
I am definately against the inhumane slaughter of horses, but I do eat meat. Doesn’t bother me at all as humans would never have climbed the evolutionary ladder to where they are today without eating meat, so it is in our genetics to be omnivores. Horses, although still not always labled as, are companion animals and should be treated as such.
I actually wouldn’t have a problem with slaughter of horses if it was done the small-scale, British or European local knacker way — SHORT drive, some cookies and a quick bullet to the head for example. The North American system is appalling.
And yes, I’m a die-hard meat eater, but I also happen to eat free-range, organic, and as much as possible locally-slaughtered food killed by people I know have experience and compassion. That’s where the “humane” bit comes in for me. As for the companion animal versus livestock distinction, dead is dead — and anyone who has seen dogs panicking at a vet’s office knows that chemical euthanasia is not necessarily more compassionate. There is no point in meat going to waste (hunter education coming to the forefront) if it can be used and everyone is aware of what chemicals have gone into it. In the north, it can be used for sled dog food, for example.
I agree with you completely. But I still believe IF horses are going to be slaughtered, they ought to be raised for it. I don’t think people want meat full of Banamine and Bute…
Absolutely. If people want to eat horses, then let that demand be filled with meat horses, of meat breeds (and yes there ARE meat horse breeds), raised as meat animals and treated accordingly. I wouldn’t want to eat somebody’s pet cow or pig.
I’m curious, and not trying to be argumentative (it’s so hard to display tone online!). Which breeds are meat breeds in horses? I don’t remember seeing something on that before, and now you’ve got me curious, dangit!
Both the Breton and Icelandic horses are considered meat breeds as well as working breeds (Icelandics eat a lot of horse because cows don’t grow well up there). The Ardennes horse is now bred primarily as a meat breed. It’s mostly some of the less popular draft types in Europe that have become meat breeds. My personal ethics forbid the consumption of the meat of animals that have been treated as ‘human companions’ regardless of species…so I have no problem with eating meat bred horses, although I would prefer not to do it myself – I don’t LIKE horse meat
Why, HYPP halter horses of course. Lotsa meat there.
Dogs panicking at the vet has nothing to do with chemical euthanasia being humane. I have euthanize d 100′s of dogs and I have never had one screaming or fighting. The only dogs I have ever seen panicking are the ones who’s owners don’t have a clue , If I as a stranger can get the dog to calm down, just shows what a dip shit the dog has spent his life with.
I have no problem with horses being eaten, I have a problem with the handling and slaughter process, but I have that same problem with all live species that are processed into meat. It is impossible to humanely slaughter in huge assembly line numbers. Meat from small local butchers and slaughterers tastes better and has a better consistency. I agree that if it could be done the same way as the knackers in europe that it wouldn’t be a big deal. There is a video on youtube that was supposed to be for anti slaughter in europe but everyone here in the US who has seen it has basically been like “wow, if that were the way it was in the US, I wouldn’t have a problem with it” Each horse/pony is led into a room where a man takes the leadrope, waits for the animal to be still and then drops it with a single shot to the head. There is no frantic behavior from the horse when it is in the room and he is in no hurry so he waits until he can have the best shot. Honestly I am impressed by his ability to handle a leadrope and a long rifle at the same time. The biggest issue other than the handling aspect is the drug remnants but there don’t seem to be any reports of ilness or death from tainted horsemeat. If we really want to make a difference, anti slaughter advocates in the US should take out ads in european papers and television to show what the actual horses are that are being slaughtered, if you look at Chevidico’s (sp) website they say that US horses are raised in lush green grass until being humanely slaughtered, many EU don’t know that they are eating chemically laden racehorses. That is where it needs to start.
Here’s the original post on CL that sparked this brilliant individual to open their mouth.
“Warning to anyone who owns horses or might be selling horses:
Craigslist is now FULL of kill buyers who are buying horses and mules cheaply, only to transport them across the border to Mexico for slaughter.
Beware of anyone who says they are buying:
-Mares or geldings- no studs
-”Broke or unbroke”
-Anything over 2 years of age
Also, be cautious of people who question whether or not your horse is skinny. If you are selling a horse, be cautious of anyone who insists that they come pick up your horse! Anyone who is a reputable buyer/owner will want you to see THEIR property that they are supposedly taking the horse to! I’ve already spoken to a couple of kill buyers from Craigslist this week, and they are extremely sneaky. They will try to tell you that they’re not a kill buyer or that they are taking your horse to their ranch to work on them for 30-90 days.
If you care about your horse or mule, do not sell to these people! ”
-this poster later said that she contacted some people who said they weren’t KB’s but who said they’d take her horses (for around $75) if they could come and load them onto their trailer so they’d have a full trailer. Since she cared about her horses she declined and has been trying to warn people ever since.
Generally the Kb’s flag our posts and email us telling us to call them so they can reassure us they aren’t kb’s…. unfortunately for them, I know who they are and I see them at auctions. I tried bailing a horse from them last month… they said sure I could come look- then they couldn’t do the first appointment time, so I kept calling and asking when I could come buy the horse- paid in cash and I’d pick up… they started screening and ignoring my calls but would answer for another number. They have about a 100 head, so they say, buy cheap horses from the sales each month, take a few they think will make them more to sell there, and say they sell to the public (but almost no advertising or listing of horses…..) and I never see most horses go on their website, never see them advertised online and they don’t show back up at the sales usually. Avoiding calls and visits, won’t answer questions… buys horses that fit the kb description…. oh, and their “staff” all work for the auction, none can ride or handle horses humanely.
So there’s some more background.
I personally have no problem with small-scale slaughter.operations for horses. I also believe that if a succesful and humane slaughter method can be made for sheep and goats (long thin necks, flighty, impossible to stun with a shot in the forehead), one can be made up for horses. However, it should be an option for those with no other humane choice, not a profit-driven market. Breeding education and reform is essential to eliminate the bottom of the market horses, not slaughter.
As a side note, i see little wrong with most modern farming practices. Beef cattle are indeed pastured for up to 2 years before spending the next 2-6 months on a feedlot (a practice i would love to see end). Sheep and dairy cattle also spend time on pasture, and while pigs are the odd man out, many facilities are plenty humane, providing rooting material, toys and group housing. Farrowing stalls (not to be confused with gestation crates) drop infant mortality to less than 8%, and are not used for the duration of pregnancy.
Stress and inhumane handling and slaughter practices affect carcass quality and ultimately, the bottom dollar.
Last thing-Grandin’s 2011 slaughterhouse audits, for those interested. http://www.grandin.com/survey/2011.restaurant.audits.html
Oh hogwash! Some may be better than others but humane and slaughter houses don’t belong on the same page. Please tell me where this pig place is that provides rooting material, other than pig crap or toys??
“Stress and inhumane handling and slaughter practices affect carcass quality and ultimately the bottom dollar” I agree with this sentence. Stress, inhumane handling and slaughter does effect the quality and the bottom dollar. And the bottom dollar is exactly why the poor animals commercially raised and killed for meat get treated in such a horrible and disgusting manner.. How many times have we all heard.” Its about the demand for cheap meat”
I have met Mrs Grandin, I have walked a slaughter house she redesigned. She did make lots of improvements but its still not close to being humane.
Dairy cows spend time on pasture? Not any dairy other than a little family farm which is becoming a rare thing.. Dairy cows suffer from the time they get ripped from their mother and thrown in feed lots so damn tight they can’y turn around,. They stand like that, in their own crap, no protection from the winter or summer. Its only cleaned out when the crap is so deep that the fence is up to their knees. Then then cows have to make room for the dozier to scrape the ground, the ammonia is so strong it burns your eyes a mile away, cows must feel great being in it. Once the girls are 2 they then get bred and start their new life standing in a barn, getting sprayed with hoses, yanked around till they either get sick or just plain wear out. Then its to the slaughter house to end that lovely life frickin scared out of their mind. Please tell me where this pig place is your wrote about I would love to see, it but until I do I call BS.
Where the flying fuck are you getting your info? Sounds like it’s straight out of PeTA monthly.
Hogs who are not provided rooting materials, toys and other distractions stress and mutilate each other. I guess damaged and PSE carcasses sell for more. Logic! And the farm is Canadian.
If my pampered dairy goat will drop production just due to a feed change, I HIGHLY doubt any animal kept in you apparently “normal” conditions would continue to survive, let
alone thrive. It’s bullshit, pure
and simple. Nothing can thrive in those conditions, and no amount of meds will help. Therefore, they aren’t kept in those conditions.
Tell me-how can animals be routinely abused and inhumanely treated when it’s proven that poor management and inhumane practices hurt the bottom dollar? Smells like AR bullshit to me. Yes, abuse happens. It happens in every aspect of life. Doesn’t make it the norm.
Actually they keep the pigs from massacring each other by keeping them in individual tiny pens. You’ve seen these good farms, but not that bad ones? Both are out there. If they were all like you describe, great. But they are not.
No one said they were all bright and happy. Nothing is. However, a large amount are. In fact, the only ones who can afford the humane measures are large scale farms (often family owned). Small-scale “happy” farms can’t afford to eliminate gestation crates, or use group housing.I’ve seen farms that use both group housing and single stall housing.Oten single stalls are for sick, injured or aggressive pigs. They can often see and smell neighbors. Not ideal, but ideal is not always attainable.
My main point is a LOT of the practicesad methodsused in commercial livestockproduction are not nice but neccessary. Disbudding, castrating, clipping teeth and docking tails aren’t pleasant, but neither are the problems from not doing them. Housing practicesaren’t perfect, but the designs themselves are aimed at both welfare and efficiency. Again, just because some farms are horrid places don’t mean all are.
BTW, I am very happy to hear camerasare being installedi slaughterhouses.Cn’t get away with much when your ass is being watched.
I have seen these dairy farms and it is disgusting what a dairy cow lives like. They do not go outside in eat grass in lovely big pastures. They are tied all day long and have electric bars above them so they can’t move. They eat sleep and live their lives tied in a stand stall until they are finished and then sent to slaughter. Go for a drive and tell me how many places you see with nice fat happy cows outside eating grass. Now it is rare to see a farm with dairy cows outside.
Agree with your “not for profit” idea. If you got $0 for bringing your horse to a slaughter house then I would agree to it.
Don’t agree with you on feed lots. Have you been to a large feed lot. OMG. EVeryone who eats meat should be visit the feed lots in Nebraska or Kansas. It was disgusting. I wrote off all meat I didn’t know the origin of after that.
If you were talking to me, I don’t like feedlots. They’re a primary cause of the lack of CLA in beef. It’s why I prefer goat.
So, Anne-you stayed all day to watch the whole process? Interesting. I’ve yet to see an abimal who thrived (or produced 6+ gallons per day) in conditions like you describe. I’m assuming there was zero pasture and massive unventilated barns too. Must make it super easy to get them milked, having to untie and move animals who otherwise never walk at all. That must be why they line themselves up to be milked 3 times a day. OSU uses their dairy farm for research and even they have pasture, along with the large barns where cows choose to hang around. It looks the exact same as just about any other dairy farm, except you can see the rest of the farm, including the calf housing (individual tethers and hutches, with enough room to touch and interact with each other.
(as a note, i have toured the beef cattle, dairy cattle, hog, sheep, goat farm and slaughter facilities at OSU for various classes)