I know that when I considered being a scientist and being all sciencey, my first idea for research was going to involve a remote control car.
DAMMIT SOMEONE STOLE MY IDEA!
Hahaha just kidding! I was NEVER going to be a scientist! According to science there are no vampires or unicorns and I could never live like that!
I think the so-called scientists are having a freakin good laugh over this one. I can see it now, “HAHAHAHA They think we’re working, collating and analyzing data, but we’re really just playing with remote control cars! Suckers!” At least that’s what I’d be saying…
Are you confused yet? Good, so am I, but I’ve at least had the (dubious) benefit of having read the article and watched the video that spawned this discussion (or what will soon hopefully be a discussion).
The video provides a really good summation of the study being done. This line from the video pretty much says it all, “The reason the training (Join Up) works is the same reason that all horse training and a lot of animal training works, is that it doesn’t actually require that you understand horse body language particularly well, just understands that you’re able to chase and not chase at the right time.”
Are you freaking kidding me? Excuse me, I need to chain my hands to something so I don’t pull out my hair.
Aaaaand back. Ok, here we go.
YOUR RESEARCH DATA IS INVALID! Why the frak was she in the round pen when using the remote control car? That introduces a completely different factor and perverts any data accumulated that might support her theory. There were numerous times during that video when the horse came to the human to “join up” and effectively asked the human to be its alpha and protect it from the evil stimulus chasing it. She then backs away from the horse and chases it away with the car. If that’s the way all Australians act around horses then no wonder more people are (apparently) killed by horses than any other animal! And this is a place with a buttload of poisonous snakes, frogs and spiders – not to mention kangaroos that would jump (pun intended) at the chance to fight Ali (“Float like a butterfly, sting like a right hook of a kangaroo” is the saying, right?).
What this video, the brief showing of her unintentional interaction with the horse and her conclusion that Join Up involves scaring the horse, tells me is that she has does not understand the underlying concept of this training method. Now, I don’t have any experience with Monty Robert’s Join Up method personally, but the round penning I did do never involved fear! It involved me controlling the horse’s speed and direction with my body language, backed up by a whip that was used only when the horse needed motivation to move (unlike typical alphas in a herd, I wasn’t about to get close enough to nip the horse’s ass to drive it forward). If science is telling us this is wrong then we seriously need to reevaluate lunging! Maybe we should be lunging our horses using RC cars too!
Did you know that, at 1:20 in the video, the horse reacted like that because the car crowded the horse (applying more pressure) and effectively “cornered” it before it had a chance to change directions and move off again. As the car gets ahead of the horse – which tells the horse to change directions – the horse does change directions and actually turns towards the outside of the arena, which is the correct response.
From the article:
“The Join Up technique starts with a trainer chasing an untrained horse around a round pen. As the trainer reduces the intensity of the chasing, the horse approaches and the trainer pats the horse and walks away.” Eeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhh Wrong-o. The horse, once it accepts you as its alpha, will not approach until your body language invites it. This can be applied to humans too. Think about it, who are you more likely to approach? The tight ass who’s standing ramrod straight, shoulders back, eyes hyper alert like daggers piercing your soul, or someone who’s just chilling, maybe has a hip cocked, shoulders relaxed, kinda looking around checking out the scenery. Body language isn’t always such the foreign language we assume it to be – the fact is, we really just don’t think about it. But horses do. All the time.
“Two main features of the method are that it depends on the human trainer being able to communicate with the horse using ‘horse’ body language, and that it is a humane form of training. Our study casts doubt on both those claims,” – quote in the article from Cath Henshall, the researcher. I would love to see the RC car in action. Can they maneuver it in such a way to make the horse change directions by turning in towards the middle of the circle? What about making the horse turn towards the outside of the circle? -oh ya, there’s a difference. The horse should always turn towards the outside unless you invite it to turn inwards by changing the direction of your shoulders (there’s a bit more to it but I’m not going to try to explain it in writing). If the horse automatically turns inwards then you are not its alpha; whereas, with a turn to the outside the horse is turning its back on you and saying that it respects and trusts you to not jump on its back and maul it to death.
“Ms Henshall questioned how humane it was to deliberately scare a horse.” – this statement, to me, screams that she does not understand horses. Period. (There’s so much more that I could say about this alone and really get into it, but that’s not the point of this already long post. I will, however, leave you with this: Tarps.)
It’s possible that the method of round penning I learned is different from Monty Robert’s and that my comparisons and interpretations are waaaay off – but I was told that they utilized the same principles. If someone else has trained with Monty Robert’s and had a different experience, one more in line with Ms. Henshall, then I’d love to hear about it.
From my experience, the purpose of methods like Join Up is to establish the human as the horse’s alpha buy communicating via body language. This is done by controlling the horse’s speed and direction. Out there, away from the human (the only herd available to a horse inside a round pen) the horse is more of a target for predators so they want to be with the human; the horse’s instincts tell them that the herd is a safe place. Now, I know that the whole ‘natural horsemanship’ thing is a fairly taboo topic in our industry. But I have had a lot of success with the round penning I’ve done. It’s how I have an angelic 17.3hh Hano/TB. When he spooks, he goes around me and he does not pull on the lead rope. He is, at all times, aware of exactly where I am. If I walk towards him with shoulders squared, he gets out of my way, no questions asked. Don’t get me wrong, this is just my experience and I know there are a helluva lot of charlatans out there *cough*Parelli*cough* – but that is another can of worms for another day. Today’s issue is with the research involving the remote control cars and I firmly believe it is bullshit – and so does this study done in 2011 that measured quantifiable data like heart rates to indicate fear/stress.
32 Comments
I have to agree that their research data was VERY invalid. That horse was SCREAMING “your alpha!” and yet she kept chasing it
As far as the way to horse turns, having a horse turn away from you is disrespectful not the other way around. For example when you are trying to catch a horse that doesnt want to be caught what do they do? Turn the butt towards you. You want the horse to turn in not the other way around.
I completely disagree with the turn in/out thing. Turning in has the horse facing you, like a challenge. Turning outward is a more submissive behavior.
If you look at horses in a herd, when one chases another away from a spot, the more submissive one always turns away, never towards and around the more dominant one.
Although if you think about a human/horse lunging scenario it could depend on their individual behaviour and “how” they turn around? I can see both ways in a good and bad scenario. Where facing their behind at you can land a kick if you’re too close, and turning inwards and standing their ground can be them challenging you.
In lunging I neither want the horse to turn in or away from me. I want him to stop on his circle line and I come to him. -but that could just be me. I find lunging and round penning to be two completely different activities.
Well thats your choice I guess. But when lounging I would much rather have them turn their front end towards me then their hind end. The hind end kicks.
But since this is obviously a disagreement of OPINIONS that point is moot.
I’m not sure I’d want to encourage a horse to turn towards me. When leading, you always turn the horse away from you. Why? To protect your feet from its hooves…it’s VERY likely to get you if it turns towards you.
However, when turning out, I always turn a horse to fully face me before releasing it. Always, always, always. No matter how good the horse’s manners are.
I’m only referring to round pen training. For any sort of handling I want the front end lol that back end hurts!
The way a horse turns has nothing to do with respect unless the horse tries to kick you while turning. I can get any one of my horses to turn in or out at my will using my body language and they respect me as a leader and friend.
I agree with jlvjthela about the turns. Turning out is “giving you the finger”, or the butt, as it were. When they turn in they are accepting you.
No reputable NH trainer “scares” the horse in the round pen. The horse is directed–in the heading and speed of the handler’s choice–but you never scare them or chase them. The woman in the video does not know what she is supposed to do to get a join up. She might have been using Monty Roberts as her source for technique, but she completely missed what he said. Roberts would not chase a horse.
I agree with you, and I think the researcher’s point of reference is the terrible fake NH “trainers” whose idea of round penning is to chase the young horse round in circles with a plastic bag tied to a stick.
Completely agree with you Snarkyrider, and although my own knowledge of NH is rather limited I do know it is not about “scaring” or “chasing” the horse at all, but about claiming the space around it to influence it and the energy you project, thus join-up is about constantly focusing your energy on the space the horse’s hindquarters is in to move it forward.
In the study she hardly replaced the human with a RC if the human is still in the ring! Gah! How does she not notice this? The video clearly demonstrates the horse interacting with her while trying to get away from the RC.
IKR?? She claims to be a trainer and yet she completely managed to miss that horse was trying to interact with her? WTF?
I think it really depends on the horse. I’ve had horses who will face me and it’s a clear challenge with no respect. I’ve also had horses who turn their butts as a sign of disrespect or as a challenge. Depends on the horse and the situation. That said, I’d rather have their front end facing me than their hind.
When I work a horse in the round pen, I want to be able to turn it, on cue, in either direction, either towards or away from me. It’s pretty easy to be done with a green horse simpy by where you stand when you “cut him off”. I would never allow a horse to turn it’s tail to me on it’s own, as in getting into position to kick, without a correction being applied and teaching him to keep his butt pointed away from me, unless asked to do so. All horses will run away from you at first when you put pressure on them. That might as light as a stare, or as harsh as a whip crack, but you only apply enough pressure to get their feet moving. Not strong enough to envoke fear of you – just respect. You simply ask the horse to move away from you. No need to scare it, for Pete’s Sake. If the horse was not afraid of you before, or even if it was, why scare it more? You ask him to move away and keep moving until you give it the signal that it cas stop. If it choses not to, then it has to keep moving. Then, you ask again. Usually, with enough repetitions, even a dull horse will figure it out, and begin to start looking to you for permission to stop. He will turn his head towards you, lick his lips, and nod his head to the ground, This is when you ask him to come to you and he usually does. Then, we all stand around for a good scritching session and am done for the day,. It really frosts me when people chase horses and make them run in the round pen while they whack it with tarps, bags tied on the ends of a lungeline, etc.. All you want to get across from them is 1.) I can control you. 2.) I can turn you. 3.) I can make you keep going. 4.) You can only stop when I give you the command. 5.) If you are good and obedient horsey, we are done for the day and everyone quits happy. 6.) Be an idiot and run around like a fool, then we will be out here a little long until you get the message. I can outwait any horse and remain cool and calm and quiet about it. The secret is in your body language and timing and knowing how to read a horse’s body language. He speaks volumes without saying a word. You just have to watch and listen.
Exactly!
I was trying to keep the post from getting too long so I didn’t go into those details but nicely put. I find that if you haven’t done (proper) round pen training you really don’t understand. It makes a whole lot more sense once you’ve experienced it – and translates pretty nicely to humans as well hehehehe
I saw a different video of this where the humans were outside the round pen and using the remote control cars on the horses. Same results. So yes, this example is horribly flawed, but you can still train a horse to round pen with a remote control car almost as well as with a human. The only difference I noticed is the slightly slower reaction time of the human controlling the car instead of just using their body might make the signals to the horse lag a bit. I don’t understand how this dumbass is getting a degree in animal science though, she seems to be incompetent at best and a complete ignoramus at worst.
I agree with Monty about the stress thing. You really are going to stress out a horse at least mildly no matter what kind of training you put it through if you’re going to have it have any contact with humans EVER. Horses are prey animals. That’s how they function. aslkjdklasd.
I could not watch that video without cracking up because I can just picture my horse walking up to that car and biting it. It’s what he does with everything. In the wild, my horse would last an hour, tops. He just doesn’t understand that his face does not belong on everything. I don’t even want to admit what he has gotten away with eating because I didn’t put it in a safe and padlock it. My favorite is when I turned on this weird vibrating back massager thing and he immediately put his mouth around it and held it there.
I’m in the same boat as you. I can’t see my horse tolerating this without putting his mouth all over the damned car and breaking it/hurting himself. He’s the kind of horse that can’t figure out that the black and white “kitties” in the paddock don’t like to be followed with his nose up their ass. (Yes, he’s been skunked 4 times and counting….)
Anyways, I sort of want to point out the fact that the little RC car is a dangerous idea to begin with. When I saw the horse in the video begin to kick, I was terrified that it would step down on the car. I can just imagine all of that cheap plastic and metal shattering and cutting up hooves and legs (as possibly a mouth if the horse is bold enough to bite). Just seems like an accident waiting to happen.
Just a poor concept all around, and seems much more dangerous to me then round-penning the Monty Roberts way.
This is pretty much what I was thinking as I read the aritcle
My eyes and ears are bleeding. That woman is crazy and clearly doesn’t know the basics about horse training. My favorite part was when the horse kicked out at the car. Because clearly chasing a horse with a toy car is a good idea.
My horse would have turned around, faced the car, and tried to try stomp it with his front hooves or bite it. That’s how he deals with dogs, although they manage to get out of the way. I doubt the RC car would be so lucky….
My question to the statement that a trainer does not have to understand horse behaviour than how do they know when to stop chasing the horse with the car? I love the part where the horse kicks at the car, that is not a good response that a trainer wants to instill in a horse!
Who the *heck* is her adviser!? Holy CRAP. Rarely can you blame the student, they don’t always pick their own master’s project (though they do in many instances). Also- who is funding this?! What. The. Crap. This gives a horrible name to science. “Horses respond to classical conditioning.” Great, we’ve already determined that. Good job. I’ll bet we could use flashing lights to train them to get into a trailer. Provide stimulus. Obtain desired response. Reward. GAHHHHH *head explodes*
Real science isn’t like this. It involves a lot more research.
YEah, when I watched the video I just ended up confused and indignant. I mean it was a video of her having zero ability to control the car and spending so much time looking at the damn car she nearly got run over a couple times.
At least learn to control the damn thing!
Completely off topic……. what is up with FHOTD? I cant get it with google or internet explorer. I read both and check in on each everyday. I got it this morning and now it is lost in space.
Ugh we’ve been having issues on and off for a while… switching hosts tomorrow so hopefully this will *finally* be fixed!
I’m Australian, we don’t round pen like that, *ashamed*!
My horses would stomp that car!
all i can say is- i’m an aussie. and i’m embarrassed
Wow, does this lady really know anything about horses? All she’s teaching the horse is that if it comes near to her, the car gets farther away and stops chasing.
I’ve introduced my horses to RC cars. They’ll just stand there and look at them unamused, and then look at me like I’m an idiot, lol.
ISnarky indeed.
If I tried that with my mare, she wouldn’t even move… she’s used to dogs and cats at her heels (they get into the pasture sometimes) so I could probably sit there bumping her legs with it and she’d just look at it with a mildly irritated face. Then she’d walk over to me and give me the “Make it stop now.” look. Not that I would EVER do anything like that, but if I were stupid enough to I imagine that’s how it would go.
are you kidding me. I use the join up all the time. Horses do the join up to each other in the pastures- just watche them. When you have a tiny little remote car running around their legs of course you are going to scare the shit out of them.