Back in May I did a post on a helmetless jumper that was featured in a sale ad. The owner of the horse wasn’t thrilled and asked me to take the post down. I refused because I wasn’t saying anything negative about her horse (actually, I thought the horse’s form over fences was quite nice) but rather the body of the post was critiquing the rider’s position over the fence and therefore had an educational purpose.
For whatever reason she commented on the original post last night and referenced a photo she had sent to me. The photo was of the mare at a hunter show and the owner felt it showed her in a better light. I disagreed and didn’t post it because I didn’t want people to rip on her horse. But, since she’s brought the subject up again and because other people may prefer the new photo to the old one – different people have different opinions, who knew?! lol
Here’s the original photo from the original post
And here’s the one the owner sent me:
Photo credit to KFAM Photography (the owner had assured me she purchased a copy of the photo and was ok to use)
So, which one, which one? Which do you think is better and why?
53 Comments
The rider needs to learn to stay over the horse centered instead of ducking to the side, it’s ugly and dangerous. Her leg has slipped back dramatically and while I admit I sometimes lose my leg (thanks to the green OTTBS) this should not happen to a pro/trainer. What I do like is the horse, the first picture shows the horse truly trying their best, the second the horse is just hopping over this cross rail with a bored expression.
The first picture actually looks good compared to the “improvement.” Where to start? Ducking, way-too-turned-out-heel, leg slipping back, jumping way out of the tack? Maybe she should send her photos to the Practical Horseman Jumping Clinic with George Morris for a reality check.
The gray is a cutie pie though.
Agree with Collegial Equstrian, her position is actually better in the first picture EEK! A crotch should not be directly above the front of the knee rolls of a jumping/ap saddle. Ever! The extremely turned out heel that isn’t really down is ripe to catch a standard if jumped too close and I wonder why the rider doesn’t use an automatic release. I agree, send to the Jumping Clinic with George Morris if she wants an opinion. At least she has a helmet on in the show pic.
Well…at least she’s wearing a helmet.
Sorry but that lady looks like a hot mess in both pictures.
Yikes. Very cute horse! Wonky, wonky positioning there, however.
She’s jumping *way* ahead of her horse in both photos. Ideally, the horse’s momentum should carry the rider up and over the fence, but it looks like she’s standing in her irons, and struggling up into 2-point. Plus — again in both photos — she appears to be leaning on her forearms for balance. Finally (my own pet peeve), if she’s confident enough to jump at least 3′ or 3.3′ per the first picture, then why is she showing over crossrails? Even if the horse in the second pic is a greenie, he should be well enough schooled by his first show season to be in pre or baby greens. Such a low fence seems to be encouraging the *really* poor form of both horse and rider. She needs some serious gymnastic work, maybe a few months w/o reins or irons, and possibly a better fitting saddle.
The fence is that low because this isn’t show jumping but hunting. The goal is to make the jumping look as pretty as possible. A quite useless category if you ask me.Of course it is important to have control over your horse in an obstacle course, but judging jumping by how pretty it is is just weird. I’m Dutch, show hunter is barely known around here. As far as I know the fences are hardly ever over two feet high.
I hope some of her future judges are going to point out her dangerous seat. If a horse refuses or jumps awkwardly she will land with her pretty helmetless head in the left fence post.
Showing hunters is much more popular in North America than in Europe, but the question about why the jumps are so small is totally valid. A class with jumps that small should mean one that is reserved for beginners. There are hunter classes at all heights, it is simply untrue to say that the jumps are rarely over 2′ tall. If you look for youtube videos at bigger shows like Thermal you can see some amazing riding in the hunter rings at 3’9 and higher.
I don’t even know anything about jumping… but the only thing different is that in the second pic she is leaning off to the side… which looks much more unbalanced than the first pic. Even I can tell your feet shouldn’t stick out straight sideways..
Also, if you go look at the pics on the photographers site, her leg comes completely off on every jump. Now, I do know from riding hunter under saddle stuff you shouldn’t have air between your knee and the saddle EVER.
The horse looks lovely in both photos (granted he/she looks a little bored in the second one, but who cares?). He/She looks like a nice steady mount that is willing and tries very hard. It also looks like he/she is able to compensate for the ineptitude of his rider. I would love to have a mount like that for my lesson program.
I admit that my leg does not always stay where it needs to be, but the rider (in both pictures) has completely lost the use of her legs. She has no contact on her inner leg and the twist in her leg has made it impossible for her to give an effective leg cue from its current position. Seeing as the inner leg is the only place you have contact with your horse over a fence, this should be a major concern to the rider and she should acknowledge that this area of her riding needs work. I will say that in the second picture the rider seems to have stayed over her feet and the horse’s center of gravity a little better, but the second picture is also a very easy jump and there is really no excuse for loosy-goosy posture over such a fence.
I would also like to add that riding without a helmet is inexcusable. I don’t care what discipline you ride, a helmet should be the first piece of tack you reach for.
Helmets are a must, for the thinking rider! This thinking rider thinks “Her butt is way too far in front of the saddle in both pics.” Your pubic bone should never be in front of the pommel (because you will regret it eventually!). This is jumping ahead to the extreme! She can do this maneuver because she has her heels dug into the side of the horse, in a very clingy, frog-saddle way. This horse must be a saint. And if this rider thinks you need these super long releases over these fences, especially the second one, she is compensating for insecurity, either in her odd leg position or from getting initially left behind.
I’m just going to focus on the horse. The second looks more professional and clear but I prefer the mare’s form in the first- it makes her look eager and enthusiastic . The second one would be better in an ad though. I don’t jump but if she really wants to sell her for a good price she should ask someone to ride the mare for her, not trying to be mean since I’ve seen worse, but from a selling standpoint you sell everything in the photo. The yard, the horse, the tack, yourself… The first one has too much distracting your eye from the horse, form included. At least she’s wearing a helmet!
But for the price she wants to get, she’s going to need to step it up…. a lot. If that mare was$2,000 -$3,500 it would be more acceptable. Then you can judge on potential and expect people to understand. For $18,000 I’d want to see that horse looking its best. That includes hiring a professional rider and getting some really great pictures of the horse jumping, in correct form.
We take about 500 per shoot to get a few good ones. Images sell (and I’d want to see a lot more of them and a video of her showing and schooling). The market sucks so if you want to sell, you need to go above and beyond what others do in their ads. If I was marketing her, I wouldn’t use either of them unless I had to.
What’s the saying, you’re only as strong as your weakest picture?
I can hear my trainer teaching jumpers now. ‘Arch your back! Stick your butt out backwards! Kneeling position!’
Do we have any pictures showing her equitation on the flat, esp. at the canter?
I’ll just repeat my comment from the last post, the rider is even more forward in the newer picture and so this will be even more of an issue. She doesn’t look to be going over anything more than 18 inches so there is even less excuse. If she was one of my students I would take away the stirrups and ask her what happens to her balance when she throws herself forward like that.
“It isn’t often that my engineering classes come in handy on a comment like this but here one is because that picture shows a problem and it’s name is torque. A horse jumping has to deal with the fact that what comes up must come down and if F=MA their coffin bones are in for more than a bit of a jar when the entire body hits the ground. To compensate you want to see the horse with their legs nicely tucked so that their knees are still flexed when landing and the can spread out the acceleration long enough for the hind quarters to land as well and give an upward push (I would do better diagramming this out so if my written description makes no sense I’m sorry) Basically you want to see them using the knees like a rubber band to slow and spread the force. So far so good. But then add a rider and you’ve got additional weight which doesn’t move with that rubber band motion creating a torque on the coffin bone as it stands between the force of the ground on on the hoof (equal and opposite reaction) and the force of the rider still moving forward at the previous velocity. T=rFsinΘ where T is the total torque, r is the radius from the coffin to the rider (we’ll go with center of gravity to simplify an already overly complex model), F is the rider’s force (mass * acceleration) and Θ is the angle between the motion of the horse and the motion of the rider. Any motion on the part of the rider exactly parallel to the action of the horse produces no torque as SinΘ is 0. A rider well back and over the horse will be moving close to parallel with the horses motion and so produce minimal torque (although there will be additional compressive forces those are already being compensated for by the 1200lbs of the horse and so adding the rider’s weight is not particularly damaging). However a rider that far forward will be moving at almost 90 degrees off the axis of the horses movement creating maximal additional force in a way that the structure of the horse and it’s movement are simply not designed to compensate for. A 150lb rider, 1.5 meters from the horses legs and slowing over the course of half a second will create an additional 450lbs of rotational force on the coffin bone. Not fun times for the horse. “
I want to know how it is she’s not dislocated her hip joints at this point. Your not supposed to be in ‘second position’ going over a jump.
As a kid I chose to quite my dance lessons in order to take up riding. I rode in ‘second position’ for a few months–partially out of habit, and partially because I misinterpreted a compliment from my instructor about how my ballet training was helping me maintain good posture in the saddle (I heard ballet position = good, so I tried to emphasize that with my feet). Fortunately that was something I was able to correct naturally.
I also had a jumping position almost like the girl in these pictures when I started riding, though I wasn’t allowed to jump until I corrected it. I learned how to ask for the canter from jumping/three point, and my first few attempts put me in danger of getting a mouthful of mane. But that was something my instructor made a point of addressing. I still don’t do a lot of jumping, but I’m at least not parallel to the ground while hopping over low rails.
I can’t really tell from the photos, but I sure hope the rider isn’t wearing spurs. If she is, poor horse!
Sorry but either way you slice it, she’s got bad form. I know that’s hard to hear but maybe when she is older and more experienced she will actually appreciate constructive criticism. Both photos are bad but the second is even worse! What’s she looking for, her contact? What happened to looking between the horse’s ears and riding through the jump? Also, she’s got her toes so far out she’s liable to knock over a standard if she’s not careful! lol The winner here is the horse who is just cute as a button and has nice form and a much better attitude than his rider =/
I like that horse! Cute!
Like all the previous comments say, she’s ducking to the side, he toes are in “wing position”, her leg is behind her. And, comeon, its just a crossrail- she’s jumping higher than her horse… or she’s supporting herself on the neck.
I know zilch about jumping, but the body position of the rider looks a bit awkward. With that said, were it me going over that jump, I’d likely be hanging onto the horses neck, upside down!
What I do like is seeing a helmet. I recently lost an old family friend, a lifelong horsewoman, who at the age of 59 was thrown off a young horse, went into a coma and died a week later. I am sure she felt that her vast experience and expertise precluded the need for head protection or maybe, like a lot of riders I know, it just wasn’t a habit she had adopted. In any case, she would be alive today if she had been wearing a helmet.
I never wore a helmet when I rode as a child, some forty years ago, but when I took up riding again three years ago I made a promise to my husband that I would NEVER go without a helmet. Someone asked me how I can stand wearing one in the AZ summer heat. I told her it isn’t an option. Jeans, boots and gloves are toasty as well and I always cover my legs, feet and hands when I ride, so why would I give my brain less respect? I don’t ask myself should I or shouldn’t I wear a helmet today, I just do it and I wish more people would do the same. I sure as hell wish the woman who introduced me and my sisters to the wonderful world of horses had made this basic form of risk management a non negotiable part of riding. She had a lot of trails left ahead of her.
I didn’t read comments, so I’m probably repeating what others have already said.
Number two is better because when she falls off she will be wearing a helmet. Too bad she doesn’t wear it all the time.
~prepares the ‘bitch’ voice~
1. Following release. It’s not that hard to learn, so learn it. You might as well leave your damn hands on his withers, the way you have your reins tightened up and your hands fisted on his neck.
2. It’s freaking cross poles. Hell, I could probably still jump that high, and I’m fat, out of shape, and haven’t jumped in almost ten years. You are NOT in a Grand Prix (thank God), so quit humping that horse’s neck like it’s a five foot jump.
3. I’d comment on your abysmal leg position, but you seem attached to it (it’s in both photos) so I don’t suppose explaining the purpose behind having your toes forward and your calf and thigh aligned with the horse’s side would do you any good.
4. Are you jumping to the other side of the world? If not, then quit looking THROUGH the little round ball we live on, and pick up your damn eyes. Jumping 101 = Look forward, not down.
5. If you want a positive comment, then here it is: I’m personally impressed with anyone whose butt is canted off to one side, whose shoulders are canted off to the other side, and who still manages to land with their horse on the other side of the jump. Okay, not impressed, really. More like stunned. Mystified.
Please… please tell me this isn’t a trainer. I don’t want to picture this person teaching little clones of her to ruin their horses this way.
Nice seat saver. She has been watching too many “top hunter” riders by the look of things. The horse is is cute, though.
It’s not often that it’s easy to say something nice about the Snarky material.
But I would LOVE to have either of those horses. Wonderful!
The rider probably thinks the second picture is “better” because it’s not straight from the side so you can’t see the awkward body position as well. I’m no expert on hunt seat position (dressage for most of the last 10 year), but I don’t have to be to realize she’s really out of sync with the horse each time.
It’s the same horse and rider in both, it’s a sweet looking horse, but worth $18,000 it is not.
I can’t say much about the rider that hasn’t already been said, except that she should NOT be jumping any horse. Looking at the evidence of the other pictures, she’s not only loose, but she’s either burying the poor mare at the bottom of the fence, or making her take off from way too long a spot. And in all cases, the rider is ducking and hanging on for dear life. She isn’t *riding* the horse, but she’s not getting out of the way either. Geeeeesh,
As far as the horse goes, pretty with the knees when given half a chance, but a somewhat flat form, which is fine for equitation. (The rider is not fine for equitation, however.)
All I can say is Wow!… and that is not a compliment.
Time for this rider to get over herself and get back to basics. As in not jumping another thing until she learns, or re-learns, how to ride with a proper seat, leg, and hands.
That is a generous horse she has under her.
Is it just me or is that a standing martingale in the second pic? I was always taught that those should never be used whilst jumping. I’m not going to go into the position – you’ve all said it all already!
I mean – we all have bad moments but you must be blind to think that that is a good position – please go and have a look at some old school SJ and event riders – you’ll soon see the difference!
Definitely a standing martigale. I don’t have much jumping experience, but I know that they should not be used when jumping. Also i know that the only time you should be leaning over like that is when you are tent-pegging while jumping. Which I don’t think is actually a thing.
It’s not just you, although it’s very loose (too loose to actually be doing anything) and thus borderline acceptable.
But no. You should not jump in a standing martingale, only a running. One dodge I saw people use was to buy a running martingale and fit it as a standing for flat work then switch it to the reins for jumping. I’m not sure, looking back, if that was wise…the rings might have rubbed the horse’s chin…but these were people keeping ponies on a shoestring. And that barn almost everything wore a martingale.
Oddly, the barn I ride at? Not a single martingale, of any kind, on the premises.
Guess which barn had more than one person bopped in the nose by their horse’s neck…
(I DO believe a loose running martingale or an Irish martingale should be used for hunting or cross country as they prevent the reins from going over the horse’s head if the rider falls off, which can cause a MAJOR wreck).
Standing martingales (that are correctly fitted) are permitted in the hunter ring, but not the jumper ring. Jumpers are allowed running martingales only. I’m not sure if there is a height limit in the hunter ring where standing martingales are not permitted, but I used one on a few ponies and horses in the past. They are, however, not permitted during the flat classes in hunter divisions, only the jumping classes.
The horse is very cute, I wouldn’t rip on her. But I agree that the rider is a hot mess in both pictures. That being said, I’m going to try to be positive and say, she looks like she’s still learning, and with any luck she’ll be competent at jumping very soon.
I can hear George Morris’s voice…screaming! She should have stopped while she was ahead and let people forget about her earlier photo, but no, she had to try again. She is actually in a worse position in this 2nd photo. Definatly NOT a photo I would send basicly “asking” people to pick it apart. She has given us alot of pick on. The only way to be able to keep her balance while leaning so far over her horse’s left shoulder is to to cant her butt way over to the right , which she does. She’s so far in front of her saddle that I could read a newspaper thru the gap between her crotch and the saddle. While her horse is doing a bored bunny hop over a low fence, she is clinging to his neck as if she’s attempting to clear a 5 foot tall 6 foot wide oxer – she’s putting way too much effort for the size of the fence. From both photos, it’s clear she has developed the bad habit of leaning to the left and looking down at her fences, instead of up to the next one. Put even a small child on your shoulders and have them lean to the left and you will quickly see how much that tilt of weight will infuence the way you move. Then, imagine jumping like that. She needs to quit worrying about the fence she is jumping – it wil still be there – and looking at it won’t help her horse clear it, her bettter position will. With the extreme turn out of her toes, she is just asking to catch a standard and I sure hope she’s not wearing spurs. Cute horse, but I’d like to see him carrying a better body condition. I sure hope this person is not an instructor. These are all somewhat easy fixes ( just alot of old bad habits to break) and then she will be able to go on to a more correct form. But ,realizing that she is NOT correct, will be the first step she needs to take to improvement. Hope to see a new and improved photo in six months! If she’s correct, we won’t have anything to pick apart.
What concerns me about the newer pic is how much she has moved over such a tiny jump. There is absolutely no need to throw your hands forward or fling your body forward over these cross-rails and tiny verticals. Scary that she does it consistently too.
She could probably do with shortening her stirrups a little bit so she’s not reaching so much for them–think it would probably help to stabilize her leg too. She doesn’t look like she’s very tall, and I too know the feeling of having short stirrups and feeling like you can’t wrap your legs around the horse. But once I jacked them up, everything went so much better and I was able to center myself better over my horse when we were jumping. A couple people have mentioned George Morris–you can always lengthen your stirrups for flat work and shorten them for jumping.
Also, no-stirrup work does wonders.
NB: Actually, hunters are usually jumped in a standing martingale. You cannot jump a hunter in a running martingale — it’s illegal. That said, I cannot understand why that horse needs a standing, especially over crossrails.
Huh. A standing martingale interferes with correct bascule…why the heck would running martingales be illegal? I haven’t shown in hunters in the US, so I’m not as up on the rules as I might be, I admit. In England, martingales are illegal in flat classes and RUNNING martingales are allowed over fences…standing martingales are, to my memory, not. That was a long time ago, though.
Jen is correct, standing martingales are very common in the hunters in North America, and are also allowed in the jumpers up to I think, 3′ or 3’3 while running martingales are allowed in the jumpers but not the hunters. There is a lot about the rules for tack for hunters that doesn’t make sense to me; pretty much any bit is allowed, but only a plain noseband. (while the dressage people are only allowed snaffled but can use flashes or drops) But anyway, to me as someone who shows hunters and jumpers, the martingale is the least shocking thing in this photo!
That is completely dumb! All the HUNT people use running martingales…and aren’t hunter classes supposed to be a test of, you know, *hunters*? I know they’ve moved away from that, but…dumb, dumb, dumb.
why are they jumping in a standing martingale?!
and how many times a day does the rider make a turf inspection riding green horses like that?
Personally the first picture is better than the second. I don’t care who the rider is but she SHOULD be wearing a helmet. Is it me or does anyone else think that they are two different horses? The markings don’t look the same…. Just saying…..:)
Grey horses change colors, my guy has different summer and winter coats and he is getting lighter, as they do. I wouldn’t worry too much about the horse being different.
I vote NEITHER!! Who in the bloody H*ll gets that far out of the saddle and has their legs stuck out like that over cross rails???
No ONE! She must be self taught because I can see no instructor telling her to do that.. WOW….
Kinda reminds me of when I decided to take my morgan/qh cross to do a schooling show and I had never seen a dressage salute, and NO -You tube was not on then… AND yes it was after the year 2000 I’m not that old..
I did something with my crop, touching to my helmet in a very nice sharp way, Um no.. which I now know to be soooo incorrect…
Any way, the grey is a super cute little horse, not worth 18K going over cross rails and looking very dirty n hairy in the 1st pic
now where are my teeth??
It’s fairly stunning that she doesn’t end up over the horses head with as far infront of the saddle she is. I can’t talk too much, my jumping form is in sad shape but at least I don’t two point over the horses neck. Annnndd talk about east-west toes going on there. I hope she nevers puts spurs on her feet or I feel seriously bad for that horse. Her head and eyes are nice in the first picture, she’s looking up and forward. I’ll give her that much. The second photo is worse, really.
Helmet wise, I think it’s a persons choice. If you want to risk your head that’s your problem. I think it’s stupid and silly, but it really isn’t mine or anyones job to be telling people about their own safety. As long as they understand the conquences and are prepared to accept them, then whatever. I personally wear one and always will- I also encourage others to wear one, but I never harass them about it. It’s a choice once you’re over 18.
Ugggh. Standing martingales have a time and a place, and over jumps is not one. Almost all the big barns around here use them like standard equipment. They use them over 3’3″ and they aren’t loose. They are required to remove them for flat classes- and the irony? Almost -none- of those horses have a head set that would even close to justify the use of standing martingale. It’s as if they just believe they haaavvee to have them on. I’ve seen a few horses that the use of it makes sense (i.e a little pony that despite good training and ride loves to run around with her nose in the air and has behavior issues occasionally to boot) but most of them it’s just pointless. The last show someone had this horse done up in a double bridle, standing martingale, breast collar, and a dropped noseband. As you can imagine it looked a little..obsessive. This was for a jumper class. Some of the gear was fine, but all together it looked like one huge, overdone, gear load.
My trainer personally refuses to use a martingale of any kind, we don’t even have any in our barn. As your would guess we sometimes get judged down in the hunter ring for being “unconventinal”. Yeah. Showing.
On a seperate note, I’d love to see Snarky/Fugly do a post on equipment like matingales and other “training devices”. I think a infomational post on them would be lovely to read.
Okay, no expert here…
But something’s not right. What is it? I keep coming back to the question: how is she holding on to her horse? Perhaps she’s holding on with her calves, but the knee, because of her foot position, is not being used. And holding on with just the back of the calf doesn’t give a secure seat.
My question to her would be, are you able to do these jumps without stirrups? My suspicion, again looking at both photos, is the rider is using the stirrup to compensate for the insecure leg. Engaging the knee in a proper position will help bring her seat into better balance with her horse, help relax and strengthen her leg.
For comparison, look at the photos in Museler’s “Riding Logic” — feet and asses are all over the place, but the leg/knee position is correct, supple, and strong.
I am member in 4-H this is what I enjoy doing..Horse judging is very fun and educational.
In the first pic the rider is throwing herself on the horse…when you are jumping you need to move with the horse. in two point your body should only be a few inches over the horse. When this rider landed, she most likey lost a stirrup or lost balance…. The twist in her leg is most likey very painful. If she was to fall off the horse she would of broke her leg.
In the second pic the lady looks like her ankle is broken…lol… your shoulders should be even …look up…. and if you are crooked then your horse will land crooked and possiably break a leg.
The horses seem to fine… but the grey is jumping early..possably landing on the jump. This lady needs to learn how to jump, this position is wrong…..horrably wrong…. She NEEDS to wear a helmet…most jumping shows ( if the second pic is at a show) recommends that you wear a helment…an sei cerifyed one…
Totally off topic, but the blurred woman in the background looks so much like my best friend, who died in Jan., that I did a double take.
I would have forgiven the first photo because, hey, anyone can be caught in a bad moment. Anyone who jumps probably has a photo where they’re like, how did I stay on through that? I know I’ve got a few pics of me that I am not proud of. I look at them, try to learn from them, but sure as heck don’t post them on the Internet. The first photo could have just been one bad jump for the rider, that they decided to use because the horse looks pretty good. Not a photo I would ever chose to share if it was me, but I could understand it.
But since the rider shows the same form in the second photo, and in fact selected this photo to send in to defend herself… Well there goes the “one bad jump for the rider caught in a photo” theory.
And not really directly related to the riding, but does nobody braid for hunters anymore? It sure is a pain, but I’ve always been taught that if the show is formal enough that the rider is in a jacket, the horse should be braided. It not just this photo, I see a lot of pics on Judge My Ride of hunters with the rider in a jacket but no braids on the horse.
I know in my area that due to the “poor” economic situation the big hunter shows have said that braiding was optional and the horse/rider would not be penalized if they were not braided. (IMHO poor and hunter do not belong in the same sentence LOL)
Interesting. I fail to see the link between the economy and braiding (don’t have the $$ to pay a braider? Braid your own horse! A ball of yard is like $2). Personally I don’t mind the look of an unbraided horse so long as the mane is pulled neatly, but the majority of people braid for the shows that I compete in, so I suck it up and braid. Been doing it long enough that I can braid a mane in about 40 minutes so I don’t really have an excuse not to.
Pretty much what Kim said, but there are even some shows (all these are lower level btw) that request no braiding so it doesn’t hold sway.
Ok – I just looked through all the photos from that show … and compared to her competition, she’s almost competent. I sincerely hope she ISN’T training because it looks like *someone* is training a lot of trainwreck horses and riders. (A 3 ring Pessoa for a cross-rail? REALLY??)